That is the title of the article in the New York Times. Just in case you missed it here is a link to the article:
The personal computer industry is poised to sell tens of millions of small, energy-efficient Internet-centric devices. Curiously, some of the biggest companies in the business consider this bad news...
We have been at this a long time. It is good to see all this coming together. Why not stick around? It is about to get fun.
The eclipsis, compoogle, efika and efiketa...
The Community is the Computer - a Super Computer. Go Zig!
12 comments:
We all know the LimePC is a piece of junk. We also know that this person is a con artist that contributed only distortion to the effort:
http://www.aboutjack.com/limepc.shtml
But, do we now have to accept the tripe on the Cherrypal site too?
http://www.cherrypal.com
Are these 'marketing' people all nuts???!!!
Please help put this back on track! The 5121e can be successful, but not like this.
David
Oh! It is the same Jack..
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2008/01/read-all-about-it.html
This sounds like a big story in the making. :)
/rasmus
Jack's been posting a lot on Engadget about this product, almost like he designed it or something. Nice try, Jack.
The way I look at it, whoever delivers a product at the $99 price point, which is cheap enough to put in blister pak at the front of a store, and gets you to the impulse buy market, wins.
Look at Palm with the Zire series. They sold a ton of units because of the $79 price point of the lowest-end model. They're selling a ton of Centros because of the fact that you can get one for $29.99 on some cell phone plans.
If Genesi can deliver, through its partners, a device with the $99-$150 price point that has really good Flash support and decent speed, then they'll be able to do what Asus and others could not, which is make mobile computing an impulse buy product. It'll also knock down the price of the gray market used laptops quite a bit.
@anonymous, @mitch
I resent that LimePC was a peice of junk - I wrote the original design proposal document and OS specification. I'd like to take the opportunity to give a big credit to Andre who did all the images and product mockups for the design. And none to Jack for stealing it and putting his name on it :)
The Cherrypal site is unfortunately a bit of a game of Chinese Whispers ("Jack at Tsinghua Tongfang in Shenzhen" is hard to say!). There is a snippet of truth in all of what they say on there :)
Matt,
I didn't insult the product :). I read your documents all the time, and actually give feedback to your team.
I was insulting the half-assed way that Cherrypal appeared to have put things together on their end, and hoping that your team can really show them how a product is supposed to work.
An iTease: Something Cool and Cheap from Apple
Yet another New York Times article. Hopefully what they did to the ODW with the MacMini they won't do to your exploits in the Smaller PC department. Good luck!
@mitch
Cherrypal are like.. well, cherry ice cream compared to the century egg that was THTF.
I just had a thought, aren't blister packs kind of annoying for consumers and also very environmentally unfriendly? :)
Cherrypal must step carefully before they take any product that is in any way slightly unfriendly to the environment to market or they're going to have it thrown back in their face..
Matt,
The "Blister Pack" comment was made in reference to Palm, who packaged their Zire series in those instead of full boxes, signifying that the product was less expensive and less costly to package. I'm sure there are many "green" packaging materials out there that would do just fine :).
Yes, they are unfriendly, and yes they require knives to open, like my GPS did, and some of my software, and many other things you buy at the market today.
At this point, their focus should be to deliver something working and usable. Packaging is easy compared to that :).
Matt said:"I resent that LimePC was a peice of junk - I wrote the original design proposal document and OS specification.
I'd like to take the opportunity to give a big credit to Andre who did all the images and product mockups for the design.
And none to Jack for stealing it and putting his name on it :)
"
with all due respect , thats really not relevant, if that is your "original design proposal document and OS specification" then that was outdated even way back in 2006, we are halfway through 2008 now and while the _2 watt_ is a very good thing...,as is the generic DC power plug,and a real _case_ all inclusive....
CherryPal's at $249 256MB of RAM, 4GB SSD (Solid State Drive), 802.11g Wi-Fi are the pits.
265 and the 4 Gig are the rela killers here, as the world turns, people are finally staring to realise the benefits of mobile streaming video, such as the new Qik
http://www.dailywireless.org/2008/07/22/qik-goes-live-everywhere/
http://qik.com/blog
now taking this (as i understand it!)almost off the shelf unit without including current 11n chipsets to give it longer term
reach,and lower power drain wireless conectivity.
plus, far faster throughput suitable for several Mpeg4 VLC live streams, WebCAM streaming ,both in and out.
thats why the original Efika/Pegasos product mockups that one of the posters here/power developer site put to you, that became the these Genesi product mockups PPC boards wih _video-in AND Video-out_ plus _codec (Encoder?)Mpeg4 procesing chip_ of some sort to take the load off the main motherboard...
that was a real sellable product way before this "Jack" very considered the concept....
back then it might have been considered Inovative, today, faster wireless, and Video-in/out to process todays Mpeg4 is becoming a nessesity for old term survival of any Motherboard/Personal Computer.
with all that said, this cherryPC is infact getting a LOT of news coverage and bragging about the 2watts, and can only be a good thing _IF_ Efika2 ever makes it to large scale production.
http://www.dailywireless.org/2008/07/22/cherrypal-2-watt-pc/
alas, you know whats going to happen, everyone that doesnt even know the Efika etal existed, will automaticly assume that any future Efika ,weather it finally gets Video-In/Out and codec encoding Included as a standard feature in the near future as part of the CherryPC line weather you like it or not due to all the press thats getting RIGHT NOW, far more and wider than the Pegasos or efika got to date.
not to mention all the sales that are getting racked up if you beleave the daily wireless pages.
they are usually very good at picking winners, and see this unit as a very good mobile device with potential, will the same be said of your Efika2 spec, or wilit be just another CherryPC clone?....
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2326024,00.asp
looking back through the blog and site, its clear the innovative idea's for this low power portablePPC kit have really been said, but did you forget the basics, give the people what they want at the price they can pay, that is what will make it or break it.
H.264 and VC1 are the current codecs to work with for the long term, power isset at an average of 2watts as a generic power point now CherryPC are getting the headlines.
wireless 11n is becoming the defacto spec everyone and his dog will be including and using this year, and 1gig ethernet is the wired connection to use.....
whats left to innovate that these other units will be not include as standard soon, thats easy as its always been said here, co-processing of these codecs in hardware for Encoding YOUR content and streaming it out to the world over secure TCP/IP tunnels, IPv6 is still not been taken up by the ISPs, so IP Multicasting/broadcasting is only viable if you include from day one a generic tunnel and client/server apps to take advantage of that bandwidth saving option, the only real question is will it be made by you rememebering the roots of thess blog/websites and the users that make it what it is, and use it, or will it be some upstart CherryPC guy thats gettign all the news coverage and putting htese ideas into practive and product availability Today!...
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2007/03/think-about-it.html
"It is true, that cable television delivery took us from terrestrially broadcast signals to 57 Channels (And Nothin' On), many more channels and now Internet delivery - one channel, your channel, when you want it. Some of us are not stuck in a time and space matrix. Some of us are.
"
http://live.polito.it/
"We strive to fully support the IETF's standards for the real-time data transport over IP. The aim of the project is to provide open, free and interoperable solutions on a par with other proprietary streaming applications. All LScube software is released under Free Software licenses.
"
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2007/02/power-over-wireless.html
"Our aim is to move #1 and #2 in volume quickly, in combination with our point-to-multipoint (P2MP) radio-solution (at unlicensed 5.8GHz). The P2MP + EFIKA solution is applicable to homes, enterprise, Internet cafes, schools, etc. The wireless CPE portion will be very affordable in volume with 1-2 Mbps connectivity and tied to ASP-like services (image development and distribution, remote support, etc.). The principal applications are web-browsing, browser-delivered apps (by Google or others), VoIP and video conferencing. In any case, do not worry! There won't be any power over wireless.
"
http://www.hmkdesign.dk/rebol/files/category-rebol-3.html
"For further evidence, I asked this: “I've often thought about how to make ad-hoc connections between computers in the same way as you write a VID GUI for simple use in minutes, just to transfer a file or two. Or a message. Or a GUI. Or something else. All without having to mess around with ports.”
Carl responded: “I think we are all thinking alike!” "
and many more POC fromway back, forgetting the original intent does noone any good, least of the the bank balance or the work profit margins , video in the key , it always was, and is creating and moving that content to the end users and back up agin, AVC Encoding and Multcasting (over tunnels as the ISPs dont want to give it to you the average world users direct) is still the key
make it and be happy... or watch "jack" and his like take our/your crowning ideas in the eyes of the users that dont know Efkia/Genesi exist or care as long as they get what they want and pay for....
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=135&highlight=video++video+out
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=193&highlight=video++video+out
@anonymous
You're right but you're also nitpicking on features and coming up with some absolutely crazy ideas that just aren't relevant.
The featureset of Cherrypal is not the pits. It is not Asus EeeBox (1.6GHz, 802.11n, HD audio..) but, it also has no moving parts - no fans and no disk - and is smaller than a couple stacked CD cases.
The moment you start putting every modern PC feature on you bump the price to $349 and all in all, schoolchildren in India or so do not really care whether their audio is 96KHz or 44.1KHz. Do you think they will all go out and buy an 802.11n router for their schoolrooms? Do you even need a 100Mbit network connection to go through an internet connection which will arguably, always be much slower? :)
Asus gets these features for free because they use Intel chipset with Intel processor and Intel wireless, Cherrypal does not. And besides, part of the point of the original specification was an integrated 802.11g wireless solution which would come with an integrated Bluetooth solution (single chip, antenna ready, with coexistance functionality) using embedded peripheral buses to keep everything nice and neat - and also be shared among a couple of other product lines which THTF and Cherrypal have very wisely not said a single word about.
I'm not sure what you're going on about with MPEG4 - and then about AVC!. Are you sure Indian schoolchildren need to watch Blu-Ray movies? Or are they just going to be browsing a social networking site with YouTube video quality? As it happens, this works pretty well on the MPC5200B, with some tweaking and acceleration and taking advantage of the PowerVR and AXE units, it can only get better.
You need to scale your product to the market or you will be designing it forever with the very latest widget.
We did write up several versions of the proposals (and some just recently) which included some quite wild ideas. We cut them down to reasonable, 100% designable designs, in order to make them suitable for the contracts. This is how business works. If you say "maybe we could have 802.11n super-duper 2010 wireless mesh!" and "it must be able to play MPEG4/H.264/VC-1 or it's not relevant!!!!" and the chips don't exist, or cost more than the entire existing design (this was true of a 512MB Efika, you thought $349 starting price was high..), you tend to be called on it when the design costs too much to be produced.
Matt,
The only thing I ever asked you guys about was Flash, because that's the one thing people ask for in one form or another, and it gets you 90+% of what you need to get something into the hands of the consumer, while looking forward to provide additional services in the future. Plus, lower powered older machines seem to handle it well.
Your proposals always make sense. Reading that past post reminded me of the people who always post on Slashdot or Engadget that give an excuse about why they won't buy something, with the excuse that "it won't do X", where X is some nigh-unattainable technical goal.
you really are not trying to understand the most basic points are you!
you are trying to do your part to make something new and longterm here?, and sell it to the masses some time soon i take it!
please take the time to read and relate some of most relevant points from these links in relation to to basic concept of these Efika2 and TODAYS market place....
all these points iv made already exist in one form or another Today, its just that noone has SO FAR made this personal computer motherboard with these option included as standard that the users can then take advantage of its capabilitys for MASS deployment in any mass market you or your future OEMs might consider.
heres a basic existing core development board (see someone finally made part of it long after i asked for these and other options)for instance that any future Efika2 etal might take the idea from and build on.
http://fpgablog.com/posts/freescale-altivec/
i choose this as its now available and it relates to Alitvec and FPGA directly, and Markos being the resident Alitvec master working directly to improve end users code might find it interesting if a general mass use MB device ever takes this onboard.
its a shame that a developer relations manager goes around spending lots of time and effort telling everyone how and why something _cant be done_ ,rather than taking the time to understand that given concept or idea and take the time to research it better ,then coming back and helping these new module based devices become reality for the long term mass market place, or even helping create these new devices from existing off the shelf modules that exist TODAY as iv bees saying all along.
Everything iv given ideas on here or elsewere, Already exists and has done for a very long time now in most cases, such as AVC Decoding/Encoding FPGA for low power Mobile devices.
as far back as 2005 there were H.264 low power decoder SOC, as can be found in many mobile phones etc.
and as times has passed the price has OC dropped per 1000, thats the one advantage of not taking the cutting edge devices that are not on the shelves yet as mass produced chips etc.
when you say "You're right but _you're also nitpicking_ on _features_ and coming up with _some absolutely crazy ideas_ that just _aren't_ relevant.
"
your wrong..., nothing 'crazy' or 'not relevent' to a new personal computer for the longer term mass use as can be seen with any quick google for low power modules in relation to what i outline, as for "just aren't relevant" what exactly does that mean ?
i dont mean to come across as Argumentative but we are talking about a general purpose personal computer with a twist to bring something unique to the mass market table and long term usabilty designed in from day one so as to SELL LOTS of them to the masses here are we not? IE such the new Efike2 or its NEAR future family line.
its clear you dont get it as it were, when you say "I'm not sure what you're going on about with MPEG4 - and then about AVC!. Are you sure Indian schoolchildren need to watch Blu-Ray movies? Or are they just going to be browsing a social networking site with YouTube video quality?"
the Whole point is NOT about playing this so called Blue-Ray quality High Def Video, although thats not a bad thing as a side effect of using the right modules/blocks in this base design iv propose, sure the costs are somethingto take in to consideration, theres NO Doute about that , but not at the expanse of cutting functionality for the long term.
it plitty simple and most BASIC really when im "going on about with MPEG4 - and then about AVC"
the TCP/IP/UDP pipe, in this case wireless, is a finite resource, in its most basic terms the more you put on it the harder it becomes to move that data through the pipe.
Mpeg4 and AVC massivly removes that mass of data to the ends of the pipe and sqashes it down by at least two magnitudes, hence better.
its NOTHING TO DO with _HD_ video, D1 and lower is perfectly good for AVC En/Decoding and with a massive reduction in data throughput at better quality to boot (thats why the worlds DVB-* are using it after all, true VC1 doesnt scale very well at these lower streaming resolutions, but people will want it for their windows encoded content etc,so its not werth removing that option for risk of loosing mass future sales in my opinion, you _seem_ to forget these most basic considerations for your proposals.
heres how the professionals have already dont most of the work required Today.
read it its interesting and full of information and links for low power mobile devices and modules that might finall y be considered for future projects, real them all ,its werth the effort to expand your limited understanding of what exists today.
http://www.mobilehandsetdesignline.com/howto/softwareandsecurity/207601538;jsessionid=OUGH3GIXAOKRMQSNDLQSKH0CJUNN2JVN
"Mobile Handset DesignLine > Design Center > Software and Security
H.264 encoder design using Application Engine Synthesis
The goal was to build an H.264 video encoder that would meet real-time requirements of 30 frames per second at D1 resolution with completion in less than 5 months.
By Craig Gleason
Synfora, Inc.
... "
sure, the seperate IP costs need consideration, but the end users will pay the extra $2 or whatever the final cost is within reason.
IF IT gives them these hardware modules to code to, or buy from YOU as an original Efika* FPGA IP vendor for this PC kit, and provide vastly more effective software at the lower watt per $.
surely you must see that as a real future option?, as well as the Efika* 3rd partys that can begin building these new IP to the Efika* generic hardware etc, the options are limitless IF you PUT THAT FPGA on there for all Efika customers to use, unlike any X86 motherboard that im aware of.
as per your "It is not Asus EeeBox (1.6GHz, 802.11n, HD audio..) but, it also has no moving parts - no fans and no disk - and is smaller than a couple stacked CD cases.
"
"Asus gets these features for free because they use Intel chipset with Intel processor and Intel wireless, Cherrypal does not."
sure, asus get this 11n for free, BUT you miss the point yet again...
the FACT this 11n now exists on every single one of these MBs , so people ARE Going to Now use it....
becouse it exists, they can now interoperate with all the worlds now and future 11n wireless kit and so one more reason to but this mobile unit rather than the next one on the shelf, as that doesnt have this 11n like all the big PCs have....
im sure you noticed i didnt mention WiMax in these posts and thats again obvious if you are coming to this with the mindset of designing for a near future general general purpose mobile micro PC motherboard and related uses for same.
Wimax , while being another increased pipe for use TODAY (see http://www.dailywireless.org/ ) it still takes rather more Watts that we can afford to use in any onboard implimentation, so a USB2/USB3 addon device will have to be an option until later next year when the off the self kit becomes available perhaps.
http://www.linuxelectrons.com/news/mobile/avc-h-264-decoder-core-mobile-apps
"AVC/H.264 decoder core for Mobile AppsPublished: Wednesday, December 10 _2003_ @ 8:02 AM CST
Contributed by: ByteEnable
..
The core can support a range of resolution up to full D1 resolution at full real-time frame rate of 30 frames per second (f/s). The core is ideal for cell phones and other power sensitive applications because it is expected to consume less that 50 mW for CIF resolution at 30 f/s for devices fabricated in 0.13 micron foundry processes. The SV-IP01LP's power consumption is significantly lower than any comparable DSP solution.
AVC/H.264 delivers between two and three times the compression performance over existing standards such as MPEG-2; this extra efficiency is a key factor for wireless transmission of video to mobile devices.
....
"
http://www.semtech.com/products/Power%20Management%20ICs/
"Power Management ICs
Semtech supplies a wide range of power management ICs used in telecommunications and industrial equipment, portable devices, computers, and networks. Our products include feature rich, highly integrated products for the telecom industry, and low power, small-package, high- efficiency products for cell phones, handsets, notebook PCs and other portable devices.
"
http://www.spectrumsignal.com/publications/fpga_altivec_dsp.pdf
http://mae.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Archives&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=178472
"Military & Aerospace Electronics June, 2003
Author(s) : John Keller "
http://www.dspdesignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=193502012
"If the advantages of FPGAs for signal processing can be boiled down to a single word, that word is flexibility. The flexibility of the FPGA compute fabric is key to how FPGAs achieve high throughput and cost-effectiveness: the FPGA designer can use the reconfigurable logic in an FPGA to form computation structures that are well matched to the needs of the application."
i really didnt try very hard to find any of these lower power, cheaper by the 1000 modules and it was good enough for the Military & Aerospace Electronics, in 2003, so its more than good enough for a general purpose mass market lower power mobile PPC motherboard Today, and gives it that twist noones done so far for the consumer mass markets....
is it really wise to coast along as you have done proposing the same as end user devices that will be compared to the fanless CherryPC and yesterdays x86 by consumers that might want to use lower power Efika2* for their faster community wireless Mesh that schoolchildren in India might use ;)
if the kit they buy gives them that faster wireless and wired pipe
for a few $ more and a little more watts (30ish?) then as this x86 low power asus gives them this 11n hardware in all their perchased devices as standard and they can use any linux to then run up and mesh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_networking
OLSR being a reasonably current Mesh, as is the Multicast addition to play around with and produce a GUi friendly front end to control it and use it effectivly...
http://www.olsr.org/
http://osdir.com/ml/network.olsr.devel/2006-05/msg00004.html
perhaps someone need to be far more open to the potential markets if such a combination of devices were to make it into a mass user MB sometime soon or others might soon take that long term profit margin away ;)
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