As one operating system leaves PowerPC, we find another just arriving and hoping to find a home soon. Proudly dubbed Amiga OS4, the jilted offspring of the once great operating system has been left homeless.
As you have probably already guessed, there will be no OS 4 release this year. There are reasons for that which I would like to explain. The main reason is the unavailability of hardware. As you all know, AmigaOne's are not available right now, so we are not in a position to offer an OS 4 with a matching hardware. We DO think that once we release AmigaOS4.0, there will be a general interest in the news, in media, etc. We will get a lot of interest from people outside the amiga market, and they will ask where they can buy it. If we tell them they cannot buy it right now and need to wait until the hardware is available, then this will take away a lot of momentum that the release will generate. Hence we decided to postpone the release until such time as a hardware platform IS available.
Huh? Did all 500 of you miss this:
Let's take this by the numbers, theoretically of course!
1. 9 January comes and goes.
2. Guido (Vesalia) calls Thomas (DCE): Hola, Thomas, it is Guido. Can you run a production of PegasosPPC boards for me. We need 50. Thomas: Sure! We have everything here under control!
3. Then, David (Sunbeam) calls. Hola, Thomas, it is David. Can you run a production of PegasosPPC boards for Sunbeam? We need 50. Thomas: Sure! We have everything here under control!
And so on... Next thing you know, everyone realizes that anyone can call and shazam we have the AmigaToo!!
Even better! ODM Technologies optimizes the design swaps the Discovery II for the Discovery V, upgrades to the 7448 and lays it all out on a single board. Cowabunga! What we have here is an open PowerPC clone market with some teeth!
Please join and register here too, that is, if you want to find out more.
37 comments:
Bill- be serious. While the Peg should be considered a viable platform for OS4, and was acknowledged as such in the Hyperion IRC session you quoted from (without quoting the source properly, I might add), you also didn't quote in entirety so are misrepresenting 'all the facts.'
To add the relevant section, from the IRC session: (all statements by Rogue/Hyperion)
"Pegasos 2 is a potential hardware platform for OS 4.
There is an initial "cost" involved for a port, in fact, for any port of OS 4 to a different hardware platform.
On some occasions (like the hardware platforms mentioned in our introduction) we'Re working on that with the hardware manufacturer.
For the Pegasos 2, we would need to do that ourselves. We're currently not ready to do that.
That is the reason why there is no OS4 on the peg yet."
While I would have no issues seeing OS4 on the Peg, it seems that as Genesi is unwilling to help with the cost of porting and/or other costs, it would seem Hyperion would prefer to work with those who apparently are willing to help with those costs first, not exactly a surprise in the buisness world.
As it was also stated that no classic version will be released prior to final, I expect this also means 'no standalone OS4 version will be sold until final,' which would also include OS4 for the Pegasos.
As Hyperion has also stated essentially that 'update 4 is basically OS4 final,' there may indeed be time to finall spend on porting to new platforms (once their existing porting work with both mentioned and unmentioned hardware is completed), and maybe then, it will happen.
So, while it might be nice marketing fluff to only post a partial transcript to 'support your argument,' there's also more info available and now presented here.
In short, maybe for OS4 final, I wouldn't mind it myself. I do have a question however, is Peg II production expected to continue say for the next 12 months, or will it be superceded by some different board and thus no longer be available?
Hi Wegster, thanks for stopping by.
Whose argument are we supporting? What fluff? We derive no financial benefit in this proposition. Here is a question for you:
What is there to the port?
R&B :)
Technically speaking, ODW HW is the only realistic platform for the OS4.
Eyetech simply doesn't have the clout to get the momentum to produce enough AmigaOnes to generate any profit.
Besides, AmigaOne is weak. It's outdated. The hardware is already obsolete. And because of the low volume, its price/performance ratio is not economically viable, to say the least.
On the other hand, once the Solaris port to the ODW is complete, AmigaOS doesn't stand a chance, in any incarnation.
Why? Well how could AmigaOS stand up to a full blooded, POSIX compliant, SVR4 UNIX? It has crippled web browsers, a very poor performing TCP/IP stack which has been retrofitted as an afterthought, the audio SW subsystem is a 3rd party application, driver library is severely limited, and there are no enterprise features in the AmigaOS.
Not a chance. It's an enthusiast / nostalgia OS. And for the price it offers too little.
Most importantly, it's a single user OS, and a non-UNIX OS at that. It's not even an operating environment, like IRIX or Solaris.
-- former Amiga coder
Not allot to be ported, just few drivers to be made
--
NutsAboutAmiga
Come on, Bill. I'll respond, but I know it's evident to you already, from the moment you made your blog entry.
You're putting forth the Peg as a bit of 'available hardware' to counter Hyperion's statement about 'waiting on availability of hardware.'
What you failed to mention was the part I added in- about costs involved in a port, which Genesi evidently does not wish to invilve themselves in, which is their/your right. However, in that situation, it's more desirable financially for Hyperion to work with a company that IS sharing in either the financial or time burden- for example, already having source access and doing the port to new hardware themself, rather than engaging Hyperion to do so.
There's also the touchier subject/question of if Hyperion is already working with other companies (which appears to be the case), if they would be supporting their partners very well by porting to the Peg II while said other companies have time and money invested, and presumably a completed or in progress port. Perhaps if Genesi had been willing to pay parts of the porting cost it might have been different earlier on.
Personally, I think it would have been ideal if a Peg port could have been worked out 6-9 months or so ago, but while unethical business may say to screw your partners (which I believe would be the case in doing an immediate Peg port vs say the Troika board, which Hyperion have acknowledged at least exists in some form now, or a relationship does), there would surely be some that disagreed with that move if it were to happen.
So, 'fluff' referred to giving only part of the story, and part of the IRC quote.
Of course you'd derive a financial interest here through additional sales of Pegasos boards, or were you claiming to be a good samaritan benefactor instead? ;-)
Regarding the port, an OS4 developer would be a better person to ask, but I'd say at least the initialization code dealing currently with uBoot, possibly bits to support the Peg CPUs (sorry, don't recall if same CPU models were used in A1 series vs Pegs offhand), network driver and a few other bits.
RE: ux-admin
Heh, I'd never put *nix systems in the same league as AmigaLike OSes, but it's not meant to compete there.
No multi-user, no builtin security, no real memory protection, etc etc. I work as a Unix developer and SA, and there's no chance I'd ever put ANY AmigaLike OS in place instead of a *nix box...but it's not aimed at the same target.
AOS and derivatives (MOS, AROS, etc) are meant to be single user OSes, and have a small footprint (but DamnedSmallLinux is pretty impressive for it's 50-60MB!). As such, it's possible the best chance for commercial success lies in 'other than desktop use,' or simply as a hobbyist OS, which you'll remember is exactly how Linux started.
IIRC, MOS was ported to an in-car system of sorts, and at one point, AInc was approached for STB use, so there may be a marketing angle or potential product out there that I at least haven't thought about, as well as a few thousand or so desktop sales, possibly more, in the realm of possibility...which may be enough to sustain a small market or not..time will tell.
@wegster
You still do not understand.
There is no financial benefit for Genesi.
We are frying bigger fish.
R&B :-)
Then way do you make your remark about AmigaOS4? if your not interested?
There is no financial benefit for Genesi.
Sorry if this sounds dumb, but are you saying it's just an unprofitable deal for Genesi? What's the problem , the Amiga Inc. license or the OS4 'porting fee' ?
Also, is there anywhere selling Efikas+MorphOS in single quantities, I don't really want 50 ;)
Of course we are interested!
The design is downloadable for *free.*
The objective is to build support around POWER/PowerPC.
OS4 works on PowerPC. It qualifies for our "interest."
You are "nuts" if you are making more of this than that!
R&B :)
I can see you are not well Bill. You need help.
Anonymous, you need help if you cannot understand what they are saying. Sam
i am beginning to understand that this is actually a very good deal of genesi and hope the amiga community should make in together on the pegasos. all ppc is good ppc and more better.
Maybe I'm a bit optimistic but I truly believe this (I mean, OS4 on Peg2) could be one of the best news for the Amiga community in a long, loooong time.
Peg2's are cheaper, more technologically advanced and seems more robust than any A1 that has ever seen the light of the day.
I hope it will be somehow possible for Genesi, Hyperion and whoever it needs to be included, to cooperate and bring OS4 to another HW platform.
Cheaper, faster boards (and of course the AmigaOS in final status) IMHO is definitely what is needed for the OS4-project to succeed in the hobby niche market.
Turrican3, Amiga enthusiast since 1990
Well, bbrv, I do not agree. If you want to be part of the OS4 bandwaggon (which you try to be since the beginning), you should have had supported it from the beginning (like e.g. Eyetech did). But now, every time OS4 is closer to a release your comments pop more frequently. Why should Hyperion or Amiga support you ? Well, they definitively do with porting OS4 to the Peg. You guys tried to run the market with a clone system for a while - without paying royalties. Didn't work ot. So next try with the real one, or what ?
@ Wegster
I'm sorry, but some of you people are just too hilarious. You spend all your days moaning over the fact that there is no hardware for OS4, but now the entire Pegasos2 design will be released completely *for free* to *anyone*. AmigaInc, Eyetech, Hyperion, ACK, Troika, heck even a joint effort of Amigaworld.net or "Wegster Inc" could use this info to set up a production run (as mentioned above, DCE for example has experience and can help out) completely in *your own* control and completely free from Genesi involvement. Hyperion can finally sell OS4 and get money in return for their work. They can even get in control over the whole package (OS+HW) and make a custom Amiga case for it. Genesi won't get a dime from it (unless that someone wants to license the firmware, which would be *a very good* idea). And you *complain*?!?? You want Genesi to *pay money* for giving away the design *for free*, and enabling a HW platform for OS4 in the process? "Porting" OS4 to the Pegasos can be done very quick and easy (as has been explained by the friedens), it won't probably take much more than a weekend or a week to get it up and running (rumours say OS4 is already running on the Pegasos2). It lies within Hyperions interest to find a HW solution for their OS, and voilá, here is one they even can control themselves, even modify and improve, but *suddenly* it's "impossible" to put in the fast and simple work to achieve this, despite the whole OS4 team (25 people or what?) has been working more or less pro-bono for FOUR YEARS? And you happily accept this and swallow their explanation? Read my lips: THERE IS A HARDWARE SOLUTION FOR OS4. THERE IS. THERE IS! PROVEN HARDWARE FOR OS4 EXISTS!
Wow, here is another gem:
If you want to be part of the OS4 bandwaggon
"OS4 bandwaggon"?!? What, are you really this blind?
Why should Hyperion or Amiga support you ?
You clearly don't *have a clue* of who is giving support to whom here. A clue: IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND!
Hyperion and Amiga are getting the Pegasos2 design --- *FOR FREE*!
What's the matter with you guys? How can you even *ARGUE* like this!? Are you guys really this insane?
It all comes down to --> Egos <--.
It all comes down to opportunity and business. In the ego contest Genesi won a long time ago. They are in Power.org. Freescale and IBM are their customers. os4 does not exist in retail form and it has no hardware. The ODW is the PPC Desktop after Apple. Get it?
Egos (emotions) make strange business decisions.
Neither parties "won" the ego contest. Buck doesn't have Amiga and Hyperion doesn't have decent hardware to sell their OS with. Only sub-performing classic upgrade boards. lol
you are joking right? the genesi team won completely. why would buck want amiga? there are more morphos users and more morphos development. some say morphos is better. i have both an a1 and peg and run both os4 and mos. but lest we forget, this is nothing compared to the genesi support in the linux world, not to mention solaris. if you are so blind to think the way you do stay in your hole whilst genesi moves ahead with real companies and real products. i think i am turning purple.
Buck wants Amiga? Are you stupid? Amiga is nothing. OS4 might be something if there is hardware. Genesi tries to help you! Help yourself! I think the problem is the average age and IQ of the classic AW.net member! What did Buck say once? Morons are morons!!
Bill,
The last sane "Amiga users" left in 2004-2005, there will be none left at all going into 2006. Those left posing as "Amiga users" claiming to desire a next gen Amiga(tm) have no interest in hardware or software, they are only interested in being in a cult.
Make kissy face with your few detractors over you-know-what desputes and pump a little more into MorphOS. MOS is far superior anyways.
bbrv, this is a community in this Forum:
http://www.ppczone.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=459
THANK YOU for that and for PPCZone. Thanks for MorphZone too as I want to give MAME and MOS a try before I go back to work. Oh, and THANKS for the ODW too!
Forget them if they do not get it!
rasmus
I have been using Amigas of and on for 20 years. Since CBM there has not been more smart money or more effort for this community than has been made by the Genesi/bplan Team. They have done it all: hardware, firmware, OS, and apps. Maybe, MorphOS will get somewhere. Maybe, OS4 fans will port Amiga to the Peg. What is sure is that Genesi has "arrived" and made a name for themselves in the market. Whatever happens next we will be reading about more success for Genesi. Thanks to you if you can take MorphOS along for the ride and even those OS4 "morons" though they do not deserve it! The Power.org presentation was very interesting.
Happy New Year!
Hi Raquel, hi Bill, it is Sean Smithfort! :D Wasting time over the Holidays and...
_baffled_ I cannot believe you are still trying to save AMIGA! :P _/baffled_
Send me an email at sean@smithfortXX.com. XX=my old jersey number in Chicago (remember Bill?!). We never won the league again after '96. Come back. We still have a place for you. We are getting older but still having fun. Where can I buy a Pegasos? :D
Center, ho!
Sean and District IV
From what I understand Hyperion has no intention to port OS4 to Pegasos because they do not have resources for this. They also have no support from the larger community because AOS is closed source. R&B are very helpful , they give specs and push open source. I see that the problem is Hyperion because they want to lock users at hardware made specifically to run AOS. OK they have a lot of drivers and a new memory management system. lease port all your OWN contributions to AROS and leave AOS to die because it is closed source. AROS developers need help, R&B help, Hyperion does not.
I cannot understand the supporters of Hyperion who made the situation bad for them. However R&B made HW low price and they gave them extra help. They do not want the helpful hand because they support very expensive solutions. I am very sorry because Hyperion seems to lose the whole point. Just like wegster.
But Solaris goes back to Power and Linux is there for a long time. Who needs Hyperion , the closed source nightmare.
I bet that wegster writes this blog from his brand new windows xp desktop drinking cofee with his evil friends Steve and Bill:-)
Unix is here to stay, Haiku strives and Syllable is gaining mommentum. Linux save us all !!!
PS.1 Hyperion, psssst , AROS is not that bad. Do you think you are more clever than (Open) Sun?
PS.2 Hope to see a Sparc or MIPS64 desktop from Genesi. the alternative HW overlords !!! Hale Genesi.
ux-admin said...
Not a chance. It's an enthusiast / nostalgia OS. And for the price it offers too little.
Most importantly, it's a single user OS, and a non-UNIX OS at that. It's not even an operating environment, like IRIX or Solaris.
Hi ux-admin,
Those selling points that concern you that AOS4.0 isn't a sellable OS happen to be the reasons I want AOS4.0. Well, minus the draw backs of not enough drivers and under speced expensive HW.
Single user, good.
Quick small OS, GOOD.
People who want Solaris will go get Solaris, thx.
Some say the Pegasos2 could be an Ataritoo. With no new hardware, Milan gone, holding MagicC. it would be a great AtariPPC. There is OpenGEM but there is always the Rom problem, and who owns TOS now?
I really don't see the problem.
If i'm not wrong Genesi has said they have no interest licensing OS4 for the PegPPC hardware, but for some reason(s) (would be nice to know why they even bother) they are interested seeing OS4 running on the PegPPC.
On the other side, Hyperion requires such a licence or "initial cost" from parties that want to provide OS4-enabled hardware.
This have been Hyperions business strategy since they started developing OS4 and even if they wish, I guess it would be very hard to change.
Imagine, if you where a licensee, and suddenly, other competitors starts selling hardware cheaper than you because they avoided the license you had to pay.
Now as the PegPPC hw design is freely available virtually anyone who wishes to pay the "initial cost" and start selling hardware can make a port come true.
@ bbrv/all
The bulk of my initial comments were regarding the current Genesi Peg 2, not about the upcoming 'Open Peg' (Peg 2 design to be released through power.org). Sorry if that confused anyone (heh, more than me? ;-) ).
bbrv has since posted some production costs/info, which is interesting.
Other points still remain valid, however. Hyperion evidently is already partnered with Troika, and it's quite possible this board (3rd party produced 'Open Peg') would be in direct competition with the Troika board, unless the resultant price was different enough. FWIW, the Peg 2 is a superior board in most respects to what's known of the current Troika upcoming model, but there is apparently already an investment of time and/or $ makde by Troika at this time. Regardless, it may not be in Hyperion's best interests to port to Peg, 'open' or not.
Regarding the long rambling post regading 'there is hardware now, etc etc,' no, not with respect to some non Genesi produced 'Open Peg,' there is not. There IS the Genesi produced Peg 2, which could certainly be a good candidate for an OS4 board, except for possible reasons mentioned above. Hopefully that clears up any confusion here..?
In the event Troika falls through, I would very much hope that someone looks at the 'Open Peg' for OS4. Or, from a purely personal level, I'd be fine seeing OS4 running on Genesi Pegs (meaning including existing Peg 2 owners), as it's decent hardware, decent price, and would have some chance of unifying the community, at least more than it is now. But, unfortunately thet just isn't the whole picture :-(
From what you are saying it sems that you would be expecting that Hyperion (or another Amiga company) procude the boards. Hyperion are not a hardware company and have state so many times (even twice - at least - in the IRC session) and there amy well be a company planningg on releasing an ODW derived AmigaOS project (we know that there are more ppl working with Hyperion than those that we are aware of such as Trokia, Eyetech and ACK)
For someone that doesn't want it and stands nothing to gain from it you sure seem to be pushing hard to see AmigaOS on the Peg II. For what it is worth I really can't see this pushing Peg II sales up as it is most likely that if this did come to the Peg II it would be bundled with an ODW dderived machine from another manufacturer as it as it requires the Amiga Inc. license and dongle code in the ROM to prevent piracy (not to mention that it would need UBoot poting to the Peg unless AOS was ported to the Peg's OF). It is nott in Hyperions interest to spend time porting AOS and UBoot to the Peg II if no-one is going to invest in modifying and producing the boards as well as aqueiring the necassary license from Amiga Inc.
The AmgiaOne is certainly due for replacement, it has served its purpose, it bought AmigaOS 4 back to the market with a non-Apple PPC hardware platform, something which didn't exist at the time (it was released about the same time as the Peg I IIRC). However I doubt Eyetech is the company to bring a new model out, Alan has already said that they have no money and that AmigaOne has not broken even for various reasons. The lack of a decent Linux port certainly hurt it, as did the lack of a "finished OS". While the Peg had MorphOS to get it off the ground AmigaOS 4 was made publicly available much later (MorphOS has been in development for a lot longer). This gave the board a limited appeal and left no money for updating the board or pushing it to IBM or Freescale as an ODW style system or any other marketing for that matter. If Eyetech does return to the market having solved the CPU supply probs) they will need to find a new chipset supplier. Mai have an even more precarious position than Eyetech and have not released an update product for longer than Eyetech - the Articia S was used in the AmigaOne SE's. The serious hardware problems with the SE's such as USB and the less serious USB as well as Ethernet/IDE DMA problems with the XE's have now been resolved with the MicroA1's but this also hurt the marketability of the board and the Eyetech/AmigaOne brand name and stopped them pushing the board as a serous solution. It remained stuck as a hobbyist system, an image that is hard to shake and has already done the damage to Eyetech's bottom line.
Amiga OS is not just a hobby OS, there is no way Hyperion would have taken the project on if they didn't believe there was a bigger market for it, even if it is the embedded market (which is far larger than the Desktop/Laptop PC market). It is not meant to compete with the POSIX big boys and is actually better suited to a Dekstop environment than they are (although admittedly it does lack the apps which is not really an OS problem as there is nothing stopping them being written/ported apart from the lack of devs)
All hardware companies have to fight to get support from software companies, particularly those on alternative platforms. If you want it for free and another company is prepared to pay or put forward driver devs etc. then you become second priority at beast. Genesi will have to pay if they want to see AOS4 on their hardware or wait for someone else to pick up the bill. Genesi could of had AOS4 a long time ago, in fact both Amiga Inc and Hyperion have said repeatedly that all they need is the hardware, the docs (which didn't exist until now), the license and the money to do the port. However you keep saying that you don't want or need it so I guess this no longer applies.
I would LOVE to see AOS4 on the Peg II (I am really TRYING to justify buying one but am finding it hard on my current budget) and AOS4 would seal it (MorphOS doesn't quite, or at least not until the current dispute is resolved and 1.5 is released). I just have one thing to say, make this happen, don't use the excuse of it being open and thus up to Hyperion, do what you did with the ODW and go after Amiga Inc. and Hyperion and create a community and a fully supported BSP
On a side note is there not some commercial tie between bplan and DCE? I seem to remember reading this somewhere a long time ago but my memory isn't what it used to be.
Every now and then BBRV makes a big deal about AmigaOS4 running on Pegasos. It seems to me that if you're not willing to invest in making it happen, then you're really not as interested as you try to sound. If there is no financial benefit to it happenning, then why bother with this blog entry? Why say you are interested, when you obviously are not interested in taking part in the process?
Sorry dudes, it just doesn't make sense.
Hi Bill, is that really the point?
The world is changing. You could, and the big players still do, make a lot of money from producing and selling many copies of the same thing. "Software" needs a new dimension if it hopes to hold the place it once did again.
Why make the blog entry?
Because as you can see the response was more than so-so. There is a great deal of interest and it will happen as we always said. Why? Because we are interested. We are interested in any OS that could run on the platform. You would be hard pressed to suggest we not interested in taking part in the process. We just stuck out toe in to see how the water was and our interest grows. Let's see what happens next. ;)
R&B
hello,
I'm an old time amiga user. I don't have either amiga one or pegasos, so I don't belong to any 'camps'. Simply pegasos didn't appeal to me, because it has an incomplete OS and AmigaOne didn't appeal to me because it just sucks. what I will say here is probably the opinion of many amiga users who are not aware of what's going on with amiga these days. bbrv, and whoever is in charge in hyperion/amiga inc camp, it seems like there is a possiblity now to make a decent amiga computer and present it to the world market. Pease, PLEASE take this chance. Bbrv, if you're really interested in running Os4 on the pegasos, stop trolling forums and contact the red camp, officially. Negotiate. And the red camp, please don't make irrelevelant demands to genesi. TAKE THIS CHANCE dammit ! We want OS4 on Pegasos ! It will rock ! I will buy a pegasos the same day if a deal is announced ! And I'm willing to pay for os4 seperately too !
You guys can scream at the top of your lungs about how free the Pegasos2 design is all you want. Manufacturing, distributing, porting an OS and writing the neccessary hardware drivers is still not free. There are plenty of various hardware designs available out there, the Pegasos2 is just another among them. What we need is someone prepared to do what Eyetech did with the design that they acquired from that far-eastern company (ie the Teron reference design). Genesi is obviously not going to be the ones to do it and Eyetech already invested more time and money that they got a return on for the AmigaOne boards. So, who is it going to be? Anyone not prepared to do it themselves with their own hard-earned cash really shouldn't moan and complain at others for doing the exact same thing.
Hi all.
I have been a silent praying soul for years. I pray for a release of OS4 with at least decent hardware... and for years I have been thinking that this is a fool's dream, In fact my girlfriend think this OS4 affair is nothing but a hype and/or a social experiment :\
I have read all sorts of forums blogs and webpages, including hyperion's, and i am even more confused now than what i was back in 2001... I'm beginning to think that i am Psycotic, that this twisting and turning soap is a figment of my (in that case) twisted imagination.
Really. As a hardcore Amiga fan I have a statement: I dont care what arcitecture is needed/granted/whatever, make it a supercharged Z80 if need be. I dont care about who said what at any given time of the Comodore/Gateway/Eytech/Hyperion (etc) soap, I most certainly don't care about inofficial statements or rumours about this or that from any camp of any colour.
I want official statements from official spokesmen or spokeswomen
and I want to know WHEN!
When will we be able to buy Amiga's again.
If at all.
Any other information is superficial at this moment.
Heck, I'll start a petition and gather money to buy AmigaInc... we can call this the pink camp
P.S. This post was written a calm heart and should be read with one too. If anyone feels insulted by this post, please please forgive me and get over it :) D.S
//Andreas
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